Was looking for some interesting questions to get some comments and found a link that had several "moral" questions. Here are a few:
Is it a sin to vote for a politician who is pro-choice on abortion?
a. Yes
b. Sometimes, depends on the circumstances
c. No
d. Not sure
Is abortion morally permissible?
a. Yes, it is the woman's choice
b. Only in cases of rape, incest, life of mother, etc
c. Only to save the life of the mother
d. Never permissible
e. Not sure
What is your view of the charismatic movement?
a. It is from God and is the future of the Church
b. It is a good movement, but not for everyone
c. One should be wary, the movement has problems
d. From the devil
e. Not Sure
What are your views on excommunication?
Should a Christian marry a non-Christian?
Well, what do you guys think? These are pretty deep questions. I feel we should vote for the more moral of the choices (regaurdless of party), abortion is at no time permissible, I like the charasmatic movement (as long as truth is being preached, which often is not the case), not totally sure on excommunication (but think there are cases when it needs to be used), and do not think a Christian should marry a non-Christian.
Tell me your opinions.
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45 comments:
Abortion is such a hot topic. It seems to me like if there was ever a place you could draw a line in the sand when it comes to voting, it could be abortion. Surly life is more important than someone's economic policy or their view on social security. Yet those who were blessed to not have been aborted cast their vote based on far less significant issues and leave those who have no voice in the cold.
Is it a sin to vote for a politician who is pro-choice on abortion?
I would have to say no. Some would argue that if you vote for someone who is pro-choice, then you are supporting abortion. I can understand that, and if that was the only issue to consider, then I'd probably say yes. But there are many issues to be considered, even other 'life' issues (war, death penalty, how other policies affect the lives of "the least of these", etc). There are no candidates that I'm going to agree 100% with. I would try to vote for the person who will do the most good, even if they might not fully reflect my worldview. That's just the nature of people - it's unlikely I'm going to agree with everything any candidate supports. The other option, of course, is to not vote, but I believe that would create other questions that would have to be considered. So, to make a long answer longer, I'd say no, it's not sin (or at least not necessarily). I might give it more weight than other issues, but I'm not sure I could vote base solely on that (or any other) issue.
Is abortion morally permissible?
That's one of those questions where I think (personally) there's a clear answer, but I'm not sure I could live by it if the right situation presented itself. I think abortion is wrong, immoral. I think it is sin. But, people always bring up the hypotheticals, such as if the birth of a child would kill my wife. What would we do then? I think my wife and I both would want to save her, not the child. But it's a no-win situation, IMO - someone's life is lost - and my prayer is that I never have to face that situation and make such a decision.
What is your view of the charismatic movement?
That's a broad term which can mean different things. I think there is good among charasmatic christians/churches, and there is bad. Pretty much the same as any other group.
Should a Christian marry a non-Christian?
Some argue from Paul's statements in the NT that it is sin. I'm not sure if I interpret his writings that way, but I would certainly advise my own children against it. I think any time a couple has different worldviews (whatever they may be, chrisitan or not), that it causes problems. Personally, I would never have done it and would advise others the same.
Good questions. Sorry for the long answers.
Very good answers Greg. Voting is a hard choice, since we don't agree with 100% of a candidates choices. I just put Pro-life as a higher priority.
The abortion issue is tough. I think we know what is right, we just pray to never be in that situation.
Matt,
I'd agree that is one of my top issues when I look to vote.
"Is it a sin to vote for a politician who is pro-choice on abortion?"
I don't think I would classify it as a sin because you would be judging that persons morals and there are canidates that stand for pro-life but have corrupt morals. I would not vote for someone who supports abortion by choice.
"Is abortion morally permissible?"
Stacy and I have the conversation every time we have gone in to have our kids "Save you or the baby?" This may seem blunt but we can have another child but we can only have one mother. I don't think that God would put us in a position where we would have the baby 'killed' to save the mother, we may be in the postition to choose to save the mother's life over that of the baby's. So for me 'abortion' in the sense of intentionally killing the baby is moral reprehensible.
"What is your view of the charismatic movement?"
I think it has freed people up to worship the way the God intended us to. With all our heart, soul, and mind, yet it has it's down falls in that it tends not to take a stand on anything and a stand on everything.
"Should a Christian marry a non-Christian?"
Not to say that they shouldn't for it can be a huge blessing to the spouse who is saved just as Paul wrote. I think people apply the 'don't be yoked to unbelievers' to mean that it is a sin. I don't interpret it that way, just like greg said. You will have troubles resulting from this. My dad grew up C of C, going rarely but going there if they went, my mom grew up devout Catholic, like going to be a nun devout but neither was 'faithful' to either faith once they left home. Modern day example Daniel & Jenna Shepard. She was a believer and converted Daniel. 1 Peter 3:1-3
Jon,
The last question is the toughest for me. I do think that we will teach Avery to date those who believe in Jesus and have the same basic beliefs, not sure if they have to be C of C (although I'd prefer it).
I agree with you, we will encourage Lawson and Jordan to pursue a relationship with a C of C woman/man. My dad impressed tha t upon me when I went to college, granted it was Harding, but if you instill the Christian values in you children hopefully they will be looking for the same. I found that I never had much in common with girls outside of the church, if I did have something in common then I was probably doing things I shouldn't, but I will stop there.
just a test.
Jon,
Agree very much so. Hopefully Avery and our other children to follow will want to marry a Christian.
BTW: Nice picture of Lawson.
What can I say, the boy likes stocking caps.
Kenny, good job throwing out the baited hook. My first inclination is to reserve comment because so many of the terms require definition. I will comment on the one question that has drawn the most comments so far. It might seem that abortion is an understood term and we all assign the same meaning to it. You may be surprised to learn, however, that LaWanna has technically had an abortion. Allow me to explain. Your readers who know our family may have noticed or children are ages 24, 26, and 30. The 4 years between Helen and Laura are the result of a pregnancy that sadly ended with a miscarriage. "That is not the same as abortion" you will quickly say, and rightly so because we had no control over the outcome. But after the miscarriage LaWanna had what is called a "D and C". That is dilate and some-french-sounding word that means "scraping". As if all of this is not hard enough on a young woman who has been looking forward to God creating a living person inside her body, this is called a "therapeutic abortion". How would you feel if you left the hospital after this ordeal and watched the evening news only to see protestors holding signs saying "Abortion is Murder"? Now, let me try to be clear; I detest the idea that men and women can and do willingly and frequently engage in sexual activity outside the marriage plan God provided and then act surprised when a pregnancy occurs, only to selfishly terminate the life of the unborn child because it doesn't fit their lifestyle. Where I disagree with many Christians is that I believe the abortion is no worse than the sinful sexual activity that preceded it. Does it seem reasonable that we would vote for someone who has multiple sex partners because he says he opposes abortion? Generaly, I agree with most of the comments already made but just wanted to say it is wise to fully define the terms before weighing in.
Roxy,
As usual you make a good point. I would maintain that abortion would be wrong if chosen by the parent(s). I also agree that abortion is no worse than someone else living in sin. That is just something that politicians are usually willing to share. Other than a few notables (Bill Clinton), we do not know about other areas in their lives.
Can't wait to hear what you feel about the rest of the questions.
I've been kind of busy this week so I haven't had a chance to weigh in on many blogs. There's so much to comment on here. I'll start with the first one: is it a sin to vote for a politician who is pro-choice?
If a Christian worldview is assumed with regard to "sin", then like Greg, I have to say no. While I may not hold the same position as this candidate on this particular issue, as a Christian I am called to vote for the candidate that most closely embodies positions that are congruent with my faith. Sadly, the right has distilled that down to two main issues: homosexuality and abortion. While I agree those are important issues, they're not the only issues. What about war, the death penalty, policy toward the poor, etc? These are important issues for Christians as well (at least they should be). To say that it's sinful to vote for a pro-choice candidate makes abortion the litmus test for Christian voting. I resent that, personally.
I've written enough for now. More comments later.
Jason,
Good point. Can't wait to hear about others. I felt the same way about voting almost the lesser of two evils. My only point here would be that while it is definately not a sin who you vote for, I personally take abortion as a prioritized issue.
As well you should, Kenny. I couldn't agree more that abortion be a significant issue for Christians. Speaking up for those who truly have no voice is part of our call as Christians.
On your second question, as to the morality of abortion...
Answering this question requires me to state my position on all human life. I've adopted a position that values human life to the point that I don't think I could ever take the life of another. Obviously this influences my feelings on abortion, but it also trickles down to my feelings about war and violence. It's funny that most Christians are completely pro-life with regard to abortion yet they have no problems supporting war or the death penalty. Unbelievers are quick to point out this double standard. The born are just as precious as the unborn. We must have a consistent ethic of human life.
As for the charismatic movement, I'll admit, I'm kind of a skeptic. I probably wouldn't encourage a Christian to marry a non-Christian because of the potential difficulties there, but the more I think about it, there's probably no more powerful witness to the unbeliever than a committed, believing spouse.
I agree that we do have a double standard on abortion being wrong and the death penalty being okay. After reading the blogs and wrestling with it myself I have come to the conclusion that I may talk about doing something heroic and 'punishing' the offender but in reality I am a big weenie when it comes to violence. Like the story about your dad stopping that man from beating that woman on the roadside, I'm sure I would have stopped him too but I don't think I could have brought myself to use force (i.e. pummeling him myself) but I would use force (i.e. wrestling him away from her) to stop it. I don't think that I could sit in a jury and condemn a man to death nor could I be the one the pull the switch on him either. Watching that cop get shot and die in the parking lot was enough death for me in my lifetime.
A difference between abortion and the death penalty is that the unborn child is perfect and sinless; the person up for the death penalty is obviously not sin free.
Jamey, you're right about the "sins" of the convict on death row. Their actions are the reason they're there in the first place.
But at the heart of the sabortion debate is a basic understanding of the value and sanctity of human life. We don't value those unborn fetuses because they're sinless; we value them because they're human. I'm saying we need carry over that same assumption in our dealings with the born as well as the unborn. Just because a man is on death row, he's still an image bearer of God and therefore he should be valued.
Sorry, I meant "abortion debate" not "sabortion debate". Trying to type with a little girl in my lap.
Jason, Jon, Jamey,
To the abortion versus war. I would agree that we should not take life. Abortion, however I do view as killing, where as war (in most cases) is self preservation.
While I read of David killing Goliath, I do not read of Bathsheba committing abortion to her out-of-wedlock child.
I do respect the views of those against violence, but do not agree that we can have order in the world without the use of force. Which is how I can support a war to attempt to stop terrorism in the world today. I feel that if we could talk to the terroists that would be the first option, since that has not worked, we are forced to use force.
The death penalty is one that I am struggling with myself. I feel that I could not condemn a man to die, but do not feel if others could they are in the wrong.
Jason,
I am kind of warry of the charasmatic movement as well. While I do like brining people into the faith, I wonder if they are being brought into a "narrow path" that Jesus talks about or a "wide is the road" version of Christianity.
Yes we must care for the souls that are on Death Row but does that absolve them of their crime. Jeffrey Dahlmer was supposedly saved so should he have been taken off death row. We can't control what happens through the laws of the land but even in the OT death was punishment for certain offenses.
To the death row issue:
Not sure how I feel, but do feel that law must be enforced (again I know we are under a new law of Christ, but there are many examples in OT of capital punishment). Also, areas that are not as linient on criminals seem to have much less crime than America today, and I wonder if that is because of the fear of punishment.
All that said, I would have a hard time sending a man to his death over life in prison (which I would think would be worse).
All right now. Views on excommunication???
Dustyn
That is my idea, but wonder what everyone else thinks.
Genesis 9:6 is an interesting passage that many use with regard to the death penalty. I'd love to hear what you guys think about it.
The reason I'm wary of the charismatic movement is that Ephesians 4 says certain apostolic gifts were given for the maturing of the church. 1 Cor. 13 says roughly the same thing (at least that's what I've been taught).
One thing I'd like to do is clarify exactly what I believe a non-violent position is and isn't. Too many people think non-violence means standing by and not doing anything to stop injustices. That's completely false. Non-violence is not a cowardly position at all. I may flesh that out over on my blog at some point.
By excommunication, are you referring to church discipline? If so, then I think Scripture makes a pretty clear case about when and how that ought to happen. Not much room for debate there, right?
Does excommunication need to be permanent until the excommunicated feels the need to repent and return or is it a 'time out' scenario where after a certain amount of time the excommunicated is reached out to and 'restored gently'.
Non-violence is quite often associated the be a complete pacifist and not doing a thing. I think that most of us, regardless of the ridiculous banter, would not bring harm to another person. I just don't think we are wired that way and if we are then at somepoint Jesus needs to take that impulse over as well. I think you are just as bad as the perp if you stand idly by and don't do anything. Besides I am tired of the absurd, extreme situations that most likely will never occur. Can non-violence be carried into you mind and what you think when someone cuts you off in traffic or for me, some one gets your sister pregnant. Non-violence is not just a physical aspect but has far greater implications in the way we think about things. "Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
I am leaving work and gone and wont' have internet access at home so don't take my silence the wrong way.
GO GATORS!!!!
Never told Kenny this but the Gators were my second team I ever rooted for. First was Michigan because Dad was from there then Florida because my aunt * uncle live there and got my a gators shirt and hat, then of course OU and followed by the Hogs.
Jason,
Gen 9:6 I would believe would be talking about murder (Cain killing Able). If not I would wonder how David could be a man after God's own heart.
Agree with Jon that non-violence is the best way to go. However, I support our police (who use force) and military in most cases. In some situations I would use force to protect my family or others. Hopefully, this does not make me a "violent" person.
Jon,
Do agree that many people that are against violence can cut with the tongue quicker than others.
Jon never told you this but sadly I have always been against Michigan. I do cheer for them now, so you can have a good weekend.
Roxy mentioned we should have definitions set...if you want to get nit picky, you could ask if spanking your child to discipline them is violence.
You could say spanking is violence. In that case we're both in trouble...
I honestly wrestle with the implications of spanking nearly every day.
In my opinion, non-violence should never be confused with non-physical. If I see someone being abused by someone physically stronger than them, I must do something. I couldn't let that be on my conscience. I would have to intervene physically, whether it be getting in the oppressor's way or whatever. I would have to take physical action. A violente approach would say beat the perp to a bloody pulp or worse. But the nonviolent approach affords one the ability to be a vessel of justice while still valuing human life. That's what I mean by non-violence, but I'm not the authority.
I would agree to that philosophy of getting in the way. Now I would threaten with violence (baseball bat, etc...) and would use it if needed (but not to beat a man, just to get him away).
Spanking, I don't have a problem with "Spare the rod, spoil the child". There are other creative ways to punish, but I feel especially at a young age a little bit of pain gets the message across the clearest.
I dont know Kenny. I think its so easy to sit here and discuss abstractly about what we believe. to tell the truth, entries like this drive me crazy cause everyone has an opinion. But until the rubber meets the road, do we really know what choice we might make?
Some say abortion is at no time permissible, and I in general am totally against it. It breaks my heart. But wouldnt it be true that if you have to choose between a mother's life and an unborn infants life on some level youre still choosing who to kill? If My life was at stake and I might not be around to take care of already existing children who need a mom, I would have to face that heart wrenching decision. Until then, do we really know? hmmm.
Good point Roxy. You just really cant speak in generalities like that.
Did you write this entry to get more comments than Jamey? ;)
I did get some comments.
I could go on & on with comments about this post, but one thing I do want to say is regarding the discussion of violence versus spanking. Webster defines violence as "exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse". Just a little clarification.
Also, I think it's really easy to get wrapped up in a conversation on a blog, but you never really know how you will react until you get into a real-life situation. And that goes for pretty much all of the topics discussed here.
Lerra,
Good point, just trying to get people to think a little.
Sin to vote for pro-choice candidate?
absolutely not - many so called pro-choice candidates are very much against abortion, they just believe that it should be up to the states to decide and that fighting abortion happens more effectively at the grass-roots level......the "pro-life voters cards" are a travesty in that they very narrowly define the pro-life position - which in it's most extreme expression, is not the most affective way to bring about change.
Abortion morally permissable?
Yes and No......for the non-religious person...morality is defined by what is legal, not by what God says......it is morally permissable for them - and I think we have to remember this as Christians - their mental grids through which they process right and wrong are very different from ours.......for the Christian the answer is always no....pretty cut and dry there - bringing the baby into the world is always the right the thing to do, no matter the setting.....
Charismatic Movement
In general, I'm not a fan, as I think that the concept of 2nd baptism is very flawed and leads people into a lot of other flawed doctrines.......but I do know many wonderful charismatic Christians......and, I am a HUGE fan of raising hands in worship - we non-charismatic types are WAY too stuffy.
Christians marry non-Christians?
Should they?.......no.......but once they do, they enter into a covenant - when 2 people honor a covenant with unconditional love in the manner in which God intended, I think God honors the union......can a non-Christian love unconditionally?.....its difficult, but possible.
Thanks for the comment NHE. Very good thoughts.
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