These are some other "moral" questions I found that might provide some interesting discussion. Let me know what you think.
Is it permissible for Christians to drink alcohol?
Yes, as long as it is in moderation
No
Not Sure
Is the death penalty for grave crimes such as murder permissible?
Yes
No
Not Sure
Is premarital sex a sin?
Yes, it is fornication
No, not if the people love each other
No, not at all
Not Sure
Are all people predestined or do people have free will to chose?
God predestines everyone to heaven or hell
God predestines foreknowing what we will choose
It is a paradox, both are true God does not predestine at all
Other
Not Sure
To be honest I am not sure where I stand on questions 1,2 and 4. I would say 3 is wrong.
I would lean towards alcohol being ok in moderation. But not really for me. The best arguement I've heard towards no alchol was by Eddie Cloer at HU. He simply said "why". Why would you want to drink alcohol when we have so many other choices?
I would also lean to saying I am for the death penalty, but do not think I could be the one to enforce it.
The last one is difficult. If God knew we would not choose him, why make us? I still don't even come close to understanding that one...
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27 comments:
Kenny,
Have you and your wife ever shared a 750 ml bottle of wine? (that size bottle is not enough to make either of you drunk if you split it).
If you're answer is "yes" to my question - you'll know the answer to Mr. Cloer's "why" question.
Regarding the premarital sex question - I would have said yes - until I saw the movie "Enemy at the Gates" - it actually provided a scenario - love making between two people who knew they were going to die the next day.....that gave me pause, though I'd still lean toward utilizing self-control even then.....especially since it turned out that they didn't die - at least not then.
The other two questions are way too loaded for me to tackle.
Good points.
...but you didn't answer my question Kenny - when I was on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ, Bill Bright asked a group of us that same "why".....I didn't have the guts to answer.....especially in mixed company.
I'm just going to tackle to the two easiest questions in my opinion.
I would not go as far to say that if you drink a glass of wine you're going to hell. I think that it's using self control to just not ever put yourself in a situation that could lead to something else. You could use that for any argument, not just drinking.
Some people say they drink because they like the taste. To me, if anyone honestly says they like the way any alcohol tastes the very first time they take a drink, they're probably kidding themselves. I think it's an aquired taste, and if you never start in the first place, then you don't have to get to the acquired part.
What about the people who try to drink in moderation, but can't handle it, only to discover they are alcoholics.
Some people drink to relax. Well, there are plenty of other ways to relax (massage, soothing music, sports, cleaning, etc.)
I guess what I'm saying is that there is no need to drink, and if it could be perceived as wrong, or lead to something dangerous, then why chance it.
We choose not to have alcohol in our home because of Avery. I think it sends a mixed message to children to have it in the cabinet or fridge, but tell them it's not ok. You can tell your kids all day long that it's illegal underage, but if they don't see you thinking it's wrong to drink (not just illegal), they probably won't think it's wrong either. I know a ton of my high school friends started drinking in their own home because of curiosity, not at a wild and crazy party.
On to premarital sex. God says it's a sin, so it's a sin. Simple as that.
Kids as well as adults do not know what they're playing with when they start physical relationships so young. (Not just the actual act of sex..the things leading up to it as well.) It not only hurts you emotionally in the short term, it effects your long term relationships as well.
God planned for a man and a woman to discover the intimate things together. If you discover it with someone else, then try to 'merge' later on with your mate, things just aren't as good as they could have been.
You have a choice to drink as much as you want. I interpret the bible as saying it is not WISE to be consumed by alcohol...
"Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper.
Your eyes will see strange sights and your mind imagine confusing things.
You will be like one sleeping on the high seas, lying on top of the rigging.
'They hit me,' you will say, 'but I'm not hurt!
They beat me, but I don't feel it!
When will I wake up so I can find another drink?'" -Proverbs
I sure don't want to be poisoned by a viper.
sorry I didnt spell check :)
Jamey, I respect your opinion, but as a counter view - my wife and I regularly have beer and wine in our home. Our children 12,14,18 have never seen us abuse it, nor have they ever been curious to try it - they just know it's an adult thing, and they respect it as such.
There are certainly exceptions - I think that we would refrain from having beer and wine in our home if we saw self-control issues or destructive behaviors in our children - as Kelly inferred - its a wisdom issue.
I am a Tennessee fan this week because they beat the Dawgs. That is what is great about being a fan of two schools. When one loses, you can cheer on the other.
Kellie J: I'd say you put it right into place.
NHE: I know what you are hinting at, and I don't think Jamey or I would tell someone else it is wrong, just not for us or our house.
Simmons: Fair weather all the way...
Kenny,
You sure know how to get a discussion going! Drinking, Sex, Capital Punishment, Predestination? All I see missing is that devil’s music called Rock and Roll.
Here's a meager stab at a one of your four.
Predestination - I really struggle with this one. On the one hand it seems insincere for God to know everything ahead of time and play along as though he’s upset when we do the things we do. When God decides to destroy the world by a flood, the text speaks of a God who is “grieved…and whose heart is filled with pain” (Gen. 6:6). 1 Samuel indicates that God was “grieved in his heart” over appointing Saul king (1 Samuel 15:11, 35). If God genuinely experiences these emotions, it’s confusing to me that he would do so in spite of his foreknowledge of such events.
The idea that God has predestined all things also goes against the grain of some Scripture. For example, God says to Abraham, “Now I know!” when seeing how far Abraham might go in offering up his son Isaac (Gen 22:12). When Moses asks God to reconsider destroying the Israelites, the text says that God repented, or relented. At any rate, a change of action is implied based upon Moses intervention. Here’s another one just for kicks. “Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, ‘They have built their high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it ever enter my mind that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin’” (Jer. 32:35).
On the other hand, there are a number of verses in Scripture that mention God’s foreknowledge and predestined will. One that is representative of many others is Isaiah 46:10 which says, “I (God) make known the beginning from the end, from ancient of times, what is still to come. I say: My purposes will stand, and I will do all that I please.”
Because we have such a diverse display of God’s nature, I believe we have to move slowly and intentionally towards our ideas about predestination or providence.
One common objection to a God who has predestined all things to happen, is our views of prayer. I guess I lean more toward believing that my prayers affect God in some way. When I pray for someone to receive comfort, or to get better from a sickness, I do so fully believing God may intervene if for no other reason than I asked him.
By the way, check your email when you get a minute.
t.h., You make many very good observations. Thank you. One more scripture to muddy the waters; Genesis 11. All people spoke the same language and decided to build a tower to the heavens to make a name and prevent being scattered. God "came down" to take a look and saw the need to confuse the language because "nothing would be withheld from whatever they attempted". Not only does God intervene in this case but it sounds almost as if the unity of man was becoming threatening. Go figure.
Yes, in moderation
Yes
Not sure
Paradox
Alright let me take stab:
Drinking alcohol...
Like the proverbs that was already quoted. Another verse that I take to heart is where Paul warns us not to make others stumble. That we must refrain from certain acts even if they are permissable to us they might not be in others eyes.
Perception is reality. If someone sees me walking out of Wal-mart with a case of Miller Lite, even though to me drinking in moderation is permissable, to them they could preceive that I have a drinking problem and this instance could taint their lenses throught which they view my actions. Their perception of me having beer is their reality regardless of what is reality to me.
Death penalty.
Law of the land. We live in a fallen world and that is a punishment fit for a fallen world.
Premarital sex.
The marriage bed is to be kept pure. God designed the marriage to only be shared by a husband and wife. When you have premarital sex you are taking that option of not sharing the marriage bed with anyone else away. Don't get the cart before the horse.
Predestination.
We have free will to choose. Other wise we would just be robots. I think that this verse is refering that God predestined a way for us to be reconciled to Him. He has know since the beginning of time that man would fall and that He would have to create a way that all of humanity could be reconciled to Him. I think we have a hard time grasping this because we can't fathom that God is not bound by time, He is outside of time and can see all things. A concept that I just can't get my mind around.
Jamey,
Good thoughts. Of course I agree with you ;)
TH: Man you are way deep over there. That is a subject I tend not to even think about, because it makes my head hurt.
Didn't get an email.
Jon: Pretty much agree with you on all 4.
Kenny - I used the address provided by the school's website. Let me know if you still didn't get it and where I should send it to.
Roxy - That's another great head-spinning verse. Some would say that verses like these are just anthropomorphisms (human traits ascribed to a divine being). When in reality God doesn't ever "feel" anything because he is a constant, all-knowing, unaffected being, who's always the same and never changing. Therefore, God never felt sick to his stomach about the flood, or changed his mind because of Moses because he doesn't have a stomach and he knew what Moses was going to ask before he ever asked it.
Jon - You make a great point about God knowing the plan he has in mind, without it limiting our decisions. For me it's gets sticky when I try and figure out God's "plans" for my life. Is salvation the only thing you would say he has predetermined?
Okay, I'm through...sorry I took up so much space with my ramblings.
TH: Glad to have your comments. There are alot of things I think we'll never truely understand until we ask God in heaven.
T.H.
Yes, I think that salvation is the only thing he has predetermined. Look a Abraham 'jewing' God down on the number of believers needed to be in Sodom and Gommorah for it not to be destroyed. Hezekiah (i think, but probably am wrong) whom God told he was going to die that night and he pleaded with God to let him live longer and he did.
God directs our steps not the paths we take. He can make the paths easier to walk. He can lead us into mission works but ultimately it is up to us to take the paths that lead to that ministry. You believe, I assume, that God called you into ministry? Correct. Not doubting you effectivness in the ministry but do you think that you could have just as effective in a corporate 9-5 job?
Thats an interesting sidebar Jon. What about being "called" into something? I have felt I could be more effective as a teacher coach, but never really felt that God has purposefully "called" me into the teaching profession. Am I missing something here? Or how does everyone else define being called/chosen by God?
I think that God can use us where we are, we just need to be willing to put our own agendas aside and seek to follow Christs teachings and live as the aliens we are called to be. I think we have passions for things but we confuse this with being "called".
I don't think by being called or chosen by God, one has to see a vision or feel compelled or have a life-changing experience. Although I'm sure there are some out there who have experienced that.
I think all of our decisions in life are based on God's will (through prayer and what He has planned for us), so in my opinion, Kenny, when you changed your major from business to teaching/coaching, that was God 'calling' you because He knew that with your leadership you would be able to influence so many people by doing what you have a passion for instead of a 9-5 job where you might be bored.
Jamey: I'd agree.
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